Two handed bowling

[Aslan]

I have been trying two handed bowling as a beginner and I found it easy to learn and interesting for beginners. What you guys have to say about it? Ever tried two handed bowling ?

Pretty much either the end of the sport or a new beginning...depending on who you ask.

It's really turned off a lot of older bowlers and in some ways seems to be another "nail in the coffin" that may hasten the end of bowling as a serious activity...that has been going on since the 1970s.

On the other hand, it has increased interest in younger bowlers...where interest was really struggling to grow for over a decade.

So, it remains to be seen what the end result will be. Will the youth movement be enough to make up for the older bowlers that are pushed to the side? The USBC seems to think so which is why they made the decision to allow it.

It's definitely caused a lot of problems. It's very hard to compete with 2-handers when they are at the top of their game. It's such an advantage that the USBC has had to look at altering oil patterns. It's also led ball manufacturers to re-introduce urethane and lower hooking materials in bowling balls to try and control ball motion.

I haven't seen it much in my leagues...mainly because its mostly older guys. Maybe 1-3 bowlers...and usually 1-2 of them recently made the switch and haven't mastered it yet. The real effect isn't going to be seen for another 5-10 years...when the college level bowlers start showing up in casual leagues. There are a lot of youth and college 2-handers out there right now...and eventually they will graduate, get real jobs, start families, and decide to bowl for leisure. Then you'll see those 2-handers start showing up in men's and mixed leagues.

The real question will be whether 2-handed bowling provides such an advantage that 1-handed bowlers are no longer competitive. If we get to that point, and 1-handed bowlers feel discouraged...you could see a real negative outcome in the sport. Older bowlers aren't going to re-teach themselves to bowl 2-handed in order to be competitive...they'll just find a different activity.

[Ryster]

We currently have 96 bowlers on our summer league. The top average bowler is 2-handed. Two of the best 1-handed bowlers in our entire local association (each have over 100 sanctioned 300 games) are also on the league and are currently averaging 30 pins less than the 2-hander. There are other 2-handers on the league as well, but it is kind of interesting that the current top bowler out of 96 bowlers is a 2-hander.

The old school guys up at the lanes are not huge fans of 2-handed bowling. It seems to be an inevitable evolution of the sport so there isn't anything that can be done about it. Might as well learn to live with it. When I was little, I was always told that throwing the ball with two hands ("granny style") was not the right way and was taught to always throw with one hand. Now 2-handed bowling is the power game.

10-15 years from now, if bowling is still around, there will easily be an equal amount of 2-handed and 1-handed bowlers on leagues. It is catching on, and taking hold very quickly.

The USBC seems to always consider a changing of oil patterns as some sort of solution. There was also a study looking at heavier pins, as well as making pins harder to knock down by changing their center of gravity (which would cause a whole separate set of issues with pinsetters.)

[boatman37]

We have about 70 bowlers in our winter league and 9 of the top 10 are 1 handers with the only 2 hander the 8th highest average. Overall there are 7 or 8 2 handers in that league. Can't speak for the summer league cause there are a bunch that I don't even know if they are 1 handers or 2

[JessN16]

I'm 48. My dad introduced me to the game at age 8. From age 8 to about age 43, I bowled one-handed. right-handed.

I was a decent bowler. Averaged 200+ for a couple of years, bowled some tournaments that I did well in (and many others that I didn't). I even learned how to drill my own equipment. Over time, I accumulated the usual "growing-old" ailments (bad knees from carrying too much weight + old baseball injuries, etc.), but one became so problematic as to give me with two choices: bowl two-handed or left-handed. Continuing to bowl right-handed was not in the cards.

Because of an old playground injury I suffered at age 12, and then from years of bad fits in my bowling equipment -- remember when the default setting for all bowlers was to stretch them out as far as possible on the ball? -- I developed severe tendonitis in my right wrist, including mild CTS. I have a knot on the back of my wrist between the fourth and fifth fingers the size of a marble. For years, I didn't have problems until about the 12th or 15th game of a tournament. Then it started hurting in the ninth game. Then the sixth. Then it was the last game of league. Then it was about the 17th frame of the night. Then the 8th. Finally, I couldn't get out of practice without pain.

But the turning point for me was one night when I bent over to pick up my then-two-year-old son, and my right wrist suddenly -- for lack of a better way to state it -- stopped working. It was like someone turned off a light switch that controlled my right hand. It was paralyzed and flopped backwards, and I nearly dropped my boy. I had the presence of mind to rotate my arm and shoulder and sort of catch him in a cradle position, something he began giggling at because he thought I'd done it on purpose. I was scared to death.

I made the decision right there that I was not going to endanger my son. I had also begun to get pain while typing, and I might not bowl for a living, but I do use a computer for a living. So my choices were switch to the other hand, or try two-handed for the heck of it -- or quit entirely. I decided on two-hand bowling for a couple of reasons: One, a friend of mine had switched from right- to left-handed because of a bad right shoulder, and then he tore up his left shoulder bowling. At age 50 or so, he could no longer lift something as simple as a chair at a restaurant without a lot of effort. The second reason, of course, was my stuff was already drilled for right-hand bowling, so at the time (this was pre-USBC change on extra holes in the ball) all I had to do was not put the thumb in.

And here's where I am now: No pain in the wrist. No knee pain. I've gotten rid of the knee braces I used to have to use while bowling. I don't have to use a wrist brace anymore. I still put on a band that is tight around my wrist, but that's it. I've never had back pain. The only "new" pain I had was a little bit of pain in the back of my right shoulder, but it went away after about a month of getting used to my new style; it was probably from using muscles I'd never used before as a one-hander.

My average, prior to the switchover, had fallen off all the way from 202 to the low 160s. My first year as a two-hander, it was about 135-140. I just finished my second year, and I jumped into the 150s, plus I bowled the best series I've bowled in nine years and one of the highest games I've bowled in a decade. I expect this year to get back to where I was when I made the switch, and then get better from there.

I'm using 14- and 15-pound equipment. But I drilled up a light ball (12 pounds) and continued to throw at the 10-pin with a thumb in the ball. I can get away with 5-10 of those shots a night still, but I'm transitioning over to shooting all spares two-handed. The problems going from one- to two-handed are all related to speed, at least in my case. My ball speed at the pins dropped from around 17 all the way to 11 at one point. I've now got it back up to 13.5 or so. My PAP changed a bunch (from 4 1/2 over, 3/8 up to 4 over, 2 down) so all my old layouts don't make sense anymore. I used to be a slightly speed-dominant stroker-tweener; now I've a rev-dominant cranker. My best attribute before was being able to play straight up the outside when I needed to; now, I'm best when I have to move left and throw right. My whole game has turned over backwards, so to speak.

But you know what? I'm having fun again. I'm reading, watching videos and learning again. Things I hadn't thought about in years, I'm now having to pay attention to like I was a beginner. But the best of all, is I don't hurt anymore. And the REALLY best thing of all -- I've got a chance to still be around when my son wants to bowl with his old dad. My dad was 65 when I was 16, and a world war and a car accident had led to a bad back, and he couldn't bowl with me very often (and never in competition). My boy is just 7 now, but maybe he's my future teammate. I will enjoy that more than anything if it comes to pass. He's just now learning the game, and he's better one-handed than two-handed, but he's still at the age where Daddy is his hero so he wants to throw with two hands like Daddy does and I'm going to teach it to him. Two-handed bowling has given me another chance at making this into a reality, so you can accuse me of cheating all you want, and all I'm going to do is look at you with a briar-eating grin on my face.

As far as health concerns go, so far, I think the fears over the long-term effects of two-handed bowling are overblown. We don't have any long-term data yet, so our natural inclination is to assume the worst. My personal bet is that the opposite will prove true.

Jess

[Aslan]

I think Jess's story is the exception rather than the rule.

Most bowlers aren't bowling 2-handed out of necessity...they are bowling 2-handed because it gives them an advantage. The question is, should a sport that was played one way for decades...suddenly be changed? Should downhill skiing allow snowboards? Should archers be allowed to use crossbows? Should we be allowed to carry the basketball, if we prefer, rather than dribble it? I mean, what rules of a sport are sacred and what rules are negotiable?

Eventually, everyone can learn to snowboard or switch over to a crossbow or start carrying a basketball. The only people that get "hurt" are the people like skiers that devoted their life to learning the "right way" to ski or the archers that learned the "right way" to shoot an arrow or the basketball players that learned how to dribble a basketball. They lose out competitively or they have to learn a new way...because they just happen to be around when the rule change was allowed to happen. Twenty years earlier, they'd have been fine. Twenty years later, they'd have learned the new way. They are just casualties of change.

Bowling has always been a rather "affable" sport in terms of rules. The PBA is very strict about sponsorship rules and things like that...code of conduct, blah blah blah. But, when it comes to actual performance issues...like letting bowlers wear wrist positioners...or allowing bowling ball companies to introduce juiced equipment...or easing oil patterns to drive up scoring...or changing the delivery from 1-handed to 2-handed...the PBA and USBC just kinda shrug their shoulders and try not to run afoul of the BPA.

[bubba809]

I'm 48. My dad introduced me to the game at age 8. From age 8 to about age 43, I bowled one-handed. right-handed.

I was a decent bowler. Averaged 200+ for a couple of years, bowled some tournaments that I did well in (and many others that I didn't). I even learned how to drill my own equipment. Over time, I accumulated the usual "growing-old" ailments (bad knees from carrying too much weight + old baseball injuries, etc.), but one became so problematic as to give me with two choices: bowl two-handed or left-handed. Continuing to bowl right-handed was not in the cards.

Because of an old playground injury I suffered at age 12, and then from years of bad fits in my bowling equipment -- remember when the default setting for all bowlers was to stretch them out as far as possible on the ball? -- I developed severe tendonitis in my right wrist, including mild CTS. I have a knot on the back of my wrist between the fourth and fifth fingers the size of a marble. For years, I didn't have problems until about the 12th or 15th game of a tournament. Then it started hurting in the ninth game. Then the sixth. Then it was the last game of league. Then it was about the 17th frame of the night. Then the 8th. Finally, I couldn't get out of practice without pain.

But the turning point for me was one night when I bent over to pick up my then-two-year-old son, and my right wrist suddenly -- for lack of a better way to state it -- stopped working. It was like someone turned off a light switch that controlled my right hand. It was paralyzed and flopped backwards, and I nearly dropped my boy. I had the presence of mind to rotate my arm and shoulder and sort of catch him in a cradle position, something he began giggling at because he thought I'd done it on purpose. I was scared to death.

I made the decision right there that I was not going to endanger my son. I had also begun to get pain while typing, and I might not bowl for a living, but I do use a computer for a living. So my choices were switch to the other hand, or try two-handed for the heck of it -- or quit entirely. I decided on two-hand bowling for a couple of reasons: One, a friend of mine had switched from right- to left-handed because of a bad right shoulder, and then he tore up his left shoulder bowling. At age 50 or so, he could no longer lift something as simple as a chair at a restaurant without a lot of effort. The second reason, of course, was my stuff was already drilled for right-hand bowling, so at the time (this was pre-USBC change on extra holes in the ball) all I had to do was not put the thumb in.

And here's where I am now: No pain in the wrist. No knee pain. I've gotten rid of the knee braces I used to have to use while bowling. I don't have to use a wrist brace anymore. I still put on a band that is tight around my wrist, but that's it. I've never had back pain. The only "new" pain I had was a little bit of pain in the back of my right shoulder, but it went away after about a month of getting used to my new style; it was probably from using muscles I'd never used before as a one-hander.

My average, prior to the switchover, had fallen off all the way from 202 to the low 160s. My first year as a two-hander, it was about 135-140. I just finished my second year, and I jumped into the 150s, plus I bowled the best series I've bowled in nine years and one of the highest games I've bowled in a decade. I expect this year to get back to where I was when I made the switch, and then get better from there.

I'm using 14- and 15-pound equipment. But I drilled up a light ball (12 pounds) and continued to throw at the 10-pin with a thumb in the ball. I can get away with 5-10 of those shots a night still, but I'm transitioning over to shooting all spares two-handed. The problems going from one- to two-handed are all related to speed, at least in my case. My ball speed at the pins dropped from around 17 all the way to 11 at one point. I've now got it back up to 13.5 or so. My PAP changed a bunch (from 4 1/2 over, 3/8 up to 4 over, 2 down) so all my old layouts don't make sense anymore. I used to be a slightly speed-dominant stroker-tweener; now I've a rev-dominant cranker. My best attribute before was being able to play straight up the outside when I needed to; now, I'm best when I have to move left and throw right. My whole game has turned over backwards, so to speak.

But you know what? I'm having fun again. I'm reading, watching videos and learning again. Things I hadn't thought about in years, I'm now having to pay attention to like I was a beginner. But the best of all, is I don't hurt anymore. And the REALLY best thing of all -- I've got a chance to still be around when my son wants to bowl with his old dad. My dad was 65 when I was 16, and a world war and a car accident had led to a bad back, and he couldn't bowl with me very often (and never in competition). My boy is just 7 now, but maybe he's my future teammate. I will enjoy that more than anything if it comes to pass. He's just now learning the game, and he's better one-handed than two-handed, but he's still at the age where Daddy is his hero so he wants to throw with two hands like Daddy does and I'm going to teach it to him. Two-handed bowling has given me another chance at making this into a reality, so you can accuse me of cheating all you want, and all I'm going to do is look at you with a briar-eating grin on my face.

As far as health concerns go, so far, I think the fears over the long-term effects of two-handed bowling are overblown. We don't have any long-term data yet, so our natural inclination is to assume the worst. My personal bet is that the opposite will prove true.

Jess

So you experience no pain anymore while bowling 2 handed? I would think that if your wrist just "stopped working" one day and that the "knot the size of a marble" on your wrist would still be very painful. You're still putting pressure on a wrist that was severely injured.

While that is good your can bowl pain free now, I have to agree with Aslan that this is the exception more than the rule. Most bowlers who have major injuries cannot merely just switch to two handed and everything will be fine.

[JessN16]

I think Jess's story is the exception rather than the rule.

Most bowlers aren't bowling 2-handed out of necessity...they are bowling 2-handed because it gives them an advantage. The question is, should a sport that was played one way for decades...suddenly be changed? Should downhill skiing allow snowboards? Should archers be allowed to use crossbows? Should we be allowed to carry the basketball, if we prefer, rather than dribble it? I mean, what rules of a sport are sacred and what rules are negotiable?

At one time, there were no gripping holes in the ball, then we got one or two (my first center used to have a lignum vitae ball on display with two holes in it, roughly a thumb and finger hole, both about 1.5 inches across). For me, the whole discussion of so-called "two-handed" style is that it's not really two-handed. It's one-hand, no thumb, with an elongated pushaway/carry-through with the off-hand. If you want to regulate that, then you're going to have to regulate what's a proper length of allowable "carry" of the ball, and that's going to turn competitive bowling into basketball. Right now, our fouls are very easy to see and judge; if you start to legislate that bowlers have to remove the off-hand when the ball passes the hip, for instance, it's going to look like junior high school and the principal measuring the length of all the girls' skirts.

So you experience no pain anymore while bowling 2 handed? I would think that if your wrist just "stopped working" one day and that the "knot the size of a marble" on your wrist would still be very painful. You're still putting pressure on a wrist that was severely injured.

While that is good your can bowl pain free now, I have to agree with Aslan that this is the exception more than the rule. Most bowlers who have major injuries cannot merely just switch to two handed and everything will be fine.

It's definitely still there. The "stopped working" period was for about 2-3 seconds, much like the sensation you get when you bang your elbow hard on something and send a shooter down the arm (and sometimes drop what you're carrying). I had numbess in my wrist and hand and tingling in my fingertips when it happened. Overall, I had gotten to the point that on the day after bowling, I could feel some residual numbness and burning in the wrist, which took about half the day to go away on its own, or would disappear more quickly with an Advil/Aleve regimen and alternating ice/heat therapy. I received a diagnosis of severe tendonitis, mild CTS and there was probably some nerve impingement that was the result of the injury I suffered at age 12.

I still get soreness in the wrist, especially on the underside of it about 180 degrees across from the knot, if I stay on the computer for a very long time, or if I have to keep a grip on something for a long period of time. But bowling rarely triggers any pain anymore, and on the times when it does, it's usually because I'm not paying attention and I'm hitting up on the ball too much at release. If I back off and let it roll off my hand it won't hurt.

The other added benefit that I just briefly touched on concerns my RIGHT knee, not my sliding (left) knee. I tore cartilage and probably (slightly) my meniscus while pitching baseball in my teens (spikes caught under the pitching rubber on the warm-up mound). I had been wearing a knee brace for more than a decade because the push/power step could really be an issue when I was using a conventional throwing style. That has gone away completely. Like, I haven't had a single instance of it since I switched over to two-handed. I'm sure it's because I walk differently now and have the hop-step in my delivery. I can't get deep knee bend with either knee (that's definitely my biggest weakness and has been for years) but I was able to completely get rid of the brace over a year ago.

Whether I'm an exception to the rule or not, the change has saved my game. As far as what long-term issues it could cause for back trouble, my point is that nobody knows, because there haven't been any so-called "long-term two-handed bowlers" yet. We'll know when Belmote/Palermaa and others start to hit 50 what to expect but until then, we're all speculating. Most people who are vocal about future back trouble, I've found, are against two-handed releases for other reasons and are looking to justify their dislike for the style by tying it to data we don't have yet.

Jess

[Ryster]

At one time, there were no gripping holes in the ball, then we got one or two (my first center used to have a lignum vitae ball on display with two holes in it, roughly a thumb and finger hole, both about 1.5 inches across). For me, the whole discussion of so-called "two-handed" style is that it's not really two-handed. It's one-hand, no thumb, with an elongated pushaway/carry-through with the off-hand. If you want to regulate that, then you're going to have to regulate what's a proper length of allowable "carry" of the ball, and that's going to turn competitive bowling into basketball. Right now, our fouls are very easy to see and judge; if you start to legislate that bowlers have to remove the off-hand when the ball passes the hip, for instance, it's going to look like junior high school and the principal measuring the length of all the girls' skirts.



It's definitely still there. The "stopped working" period was for about 2-3 seconds, much like the sensation you get when you bang your elbow hard on something and send a shooter down the arm (and sometimes drop what you're carrying). I had numbess in my wrist and hand and tingling in my fingertips when it happened. Overall, I had gotten to the point that on the day after bowling, I could feel some residual numbness and burning in the wrist, which took about half the day to go away on its own, or would disappear more quickly with an Advil/Aleve regimen and alternating ice/heat therapy. I received a diagnosis of severe tendonitis, mild CTS and there was probably some nerve impingement that was the result of the injury I suffered at age 12.

I still get soreness in the wrist, especially on the underside of it about 180 degrees across from the knot, if I stay on the computer for a very long time, or if I have to keep a grip on something for a long period of time. But bowling rarely triggers any pain anymore, and on the times when it does, it's usually because I'm not paying attention and I'm hitting up on the ball too much at release. If I back off and let it roll off my hand it won't hurt.

The other added benefit that I just briefly touched on concerns my RIGHT knee, not my sliding (left) knee. I tore cartilage and probably (slightly) my meniscus while pitching baseball in my teens (spikes caught under the pitching rubber on the warm-up mound). I had been wearing a knee brace for more than a decade because the push/power step could really be an issue when I was using a conventional throwing style. That has gone away completely. Like, I haven't had a single instance of it since I switched over to two-handed. I'm sure it's because I walk differently now and have the hop-step in my delivery. I can't get deep knee bend with either knee (that's definitely my biggest weakness and has been for years) but I was able to completely get rid of the brace over a year ago.

Whether I'm an exception to the rule or not, the change has saved my game. As far as what long-term issues it could cause for back trouble, my point is that nobody knows, because there haven't been any so-called "long-term two-handed bowlers" yet. We'll know when Belmote/Palermaa and others start to hit 50 what to expect but until then, we're all speculating. Most people who are vocal about future back trouble, I've found, are against two-handed releases for other reasons and are looking to justify their dislike for the style by tying it to data we don't have yet.

Jess

Chuck Lande is the original 2-handed pro bowler, and won 5 tournaments in the late 80s/early 90s. He decided against a long term PBA career because being a pro bowler wasn't all he thought it would be. It looks like he is still a sanctioned bowler, but hasn't bowled on any leagues for 10+ years.

It would be interesting to hear from him today as it pertains to the physical impact, if any, bowling 2 handed has had on his body.

[JessN16]

Chuck Lande is the original 2-handed pro bowler, and won 5 tournaments in the late 80s/early 90s. He decided against a long term PBA career because being a pro bowler wasn't all he thought it would be. It looks like he is still a sanctioned bowler, but hasn't bowled on any leagues for 10+ years.

It would be interesting to hear from him today as it pertains to the physical impact, if any, bowling 2 handed has had on his body.

Yes, I've seen Chuck bowl before, and I hope one day he gets the credit he deserves for his innovations.

He's not the only "older" two-hander that's out there, but any other old guys are probably guys like me that converted, so the first 30 years of my ABC/USBC life were as a one-hander. I'm not sure my data is going to be pure enough to include in any kind of long-term study, for or against the topic, since my "career" would be split between the two styles.

Chuck may very well be the only long-term two-hander we know about. And if that's the case, his feedback by itself will be just a single data point. It's going to be about 20-30 years before we have enough data from enough different bowlers for it to become statistically significant. Until then I'm sure the debate will rage unabated.

Jess

[J Anderson]

Yes, I've seen Chuck bowl before, and I hope one day he gets the credit he deserves for his innovations.

He's not the only "older" two-hander that's out there, but any other old guys are probably guys like me that converted, so the first 30 years of my ABC/USBC life were as a one-hander. I'm not sure my data is going to be pure enough to include in any kind of long-term study, for or against the topic, since my "career" would be split between the two styles.

Chuck may very well be the only long-term two-hander we know about. And if that's the case, his feedback by itself will be just a single data point. It's going to be about 20-30 years before we have enough data from enough different bowlers for it to become statistically significant. Until then I'm sure the debate will rage unabated.

Jess

I admit that I have not tried a two handed delivery because I strained the muscles in my lower back about 30 years ago and the way Belmo and Osku got their backs parallel to the floor made it look like I would be asking trouble by trying it.

As I think about it, most of the people I know who are middle aged already have some sort of physical problem, especially those who have worked blue collar jobs, or those who are “weekend warriors” going out and pretending their still 18 after sitting at a desk for most of the week. I have a feeling that encouraging kids to learn two handed is not going to doom them to a life of pain when they hit middle age. As a coach I don’t really try to push kids toward one style or the other, I just try to get them to execute their own style as effectively and safely as possible. I don’t mind if the experiment in practice, switching back and forth between the two. However once they decide to go two handed, I encourage them to use two hands even on corner pins.