Are all Las Vegas centers so easy?

[vdubtx]

Was in Las Vegas over the weekend and brought a couple balls with me to get some practice in at the hotel I was staying in. Thank you Southwest for 2 free bags. :cool:

Stayed at the Red Rock Casino/Spa/Hotel and had chance to get a couple games in.

Seemed all I had to do was throw at the gutter and everything was hitting pocket. I could play anywhere from 1 board to 10 board at the breakpoint and ball just made it's way back in. Not used to having so much area and absolutely no out of bounds area compared to what we have on the house patterns here in Texas.

Averaged 251 through 6 games on 2 different sessions.

[foreverincamo]

Makes up for the tight slot machines.

[Blacksox1]

This should be a fun thread ;)

[ep1977]

Everything is easy in Vegas to keep people happy while losing their money in the casinos.

[ChuckR]

I live in Vegas and Bowl at Red Rock. You should see what they do for leagues. Or don't do for leagues. It is a GOOD house, but I have never seen what you describe.
When did you throw, day and time. I would love to see those conditions as they would be great for the mental part of the game.

[got_a_300]

Yeah I wish we had that easy of a shot around here we have a
massive out of bounds area here from board 9 out to the channel
and about a 2 board area to hit to get in the pocket around the 10
to the 11th board.

Outside 9 and with super slooooow ball speed you'll be lucky to hit
the 3 pin or behind it or get less like a 2-3 count. Hit inside of the
11th board and you'll be looking at either a dead on the head pin
split or a runaway brooklyn hit waaaay on the left side of the 2 pin.

No wonder my average is down into the 180's and still dropping it
almost makes me want to up and quit or to go back into bowling
retirement again after the season or drive 80+ miles round trip to
the next closest center.

[Aslan]

Mudpuppy Cliff Note Answer: No

Aslan Answer:
I've bowled at:

The Orleans
South Pointe
Gold Coast
Suncoast
Red Rock

I felt that the Red Rock was the easiest of the five. The other 4 were very similar...and were not very easy (to me). The only real differences I noticed is that at the Gold Coast I had a bit of trouble sliding. Other than approach differences, I didn't notice much difference. I don't remember South Pointe...but I know at Suncoast (and Rob/ChuckR can explain this better)...there seems to be a difference depending on which side you're on because it's a center that has 20 lanes on one side and 20 lanes on the other side (not all lined up alongside one another). Maybe it's 30 each side...I don't remember.

One unfortunate thing about bowling is that since conditions and pin placement and pin weights differ so much:

1) It's impossible to compare house to house unless you're bowling on fresh conditions.
2) Some centers will seem easier to some bowlers than other centers....but not everyone will feel the same center is "easy" versus "hard"....because it is dependent on how you throw the ball. Higher speed shots, higher rev shots, inside lines vs outside and in...all these will fare well at some centers and not as much at others.

For example, when I used to bowl on wood lanes...higher speed and lofting shots played well. Slower speeds and higher rev players hated it. When I started bowling on synthetics...it was the opposite....everyone had slow speeds and/or high revs and scored well....straighter and higher speed players struggled to get in the 190s.

Until bowling goes back to maintaining the integrity of the game by more strictly enforcing sanctioned consitions (which they never, ever, ever will...)...some centers are going to seem "easy" and some "hard"....and practicing on non-league or non-tournament conditions will be of very little value once the league/tournament conditions are applied. How many times have new users showed up in the forums talking about how awesome they are because in open bowling they bowled a 240...only to join a sanctioned league and average in the high 150s? If the outsides are burnt up...and you just palm a house ball at the breakpoint...yeah, lots of bounce out there! Then they try that on league night and can't find the pocket.

[vdubtx]

When I bowled it was the evenings of Friday and Monday after about 9pm or so. Leagues had already cleared out and was only open bowling.

Went to check out South Point as that is where Nationals will be. Man that place is way out there. When they mean South Point, that is literal! :cool:

Both centers at South Point were laid out pretty similar. There was an ABT tournament going on while we were there in the Arena area. That place is really hopping. Had some convention going on as well as the Off Road races as well.

[RobLV1]

A lot depends on when you bowl in each individual center. Red Rock is considered to be the easiest shot in town, earning it the name "The Great Wall of Red Rock." LOL

[vdubtx]

A lot depends on when you bowl in each individual center. Red Rock is considered to be the easiest shot in town, earning it the name "The Great Wall of Red Rock." LOL

LOL.

Makes sense with what I saw then. Think I could rack up my Achievement resume in that place. :cool:

[got_a_300]

A lot depends on when you bowl in each individual center. Red Rock is considered to be the easiest shot in town, earning it the name "The Great Wall of Red Rock." LOL

Okay looks like it is about time for me to make the move to Vegas
and bowl at Red Rock where I can bowl my normal games / average
every once in awhile. LOL!!!!

[Blacksox1]

Below is the list of bowling leagues for the Red Rock Lanes bowling Center in Las Vegas, Nevada. 64 reporting leagues, averaging 168, this is quite high for all league bowlers.

[Blacksox1]

Gold Coast 179
Orleans 174
Sante Fe 166
Sam's Town 161
South Point 166
Suncoast 178
Texas Station 163
Stats From LeagueSecretary.com
Easiest city in the United States Vdubtx

[Blacksox1]

When I bowled it was the evenings of Friday and Monday after about 9pm or so. Leagues had already cleared out and was only open bowling.

Went to check out South Point as that is where Nationals will be. Man that place is way out there. When they mean South Point, that is literal! :cool:

Both centers at South Point were laid out pretty similar. There was an ABT tournament going on while we were there in the Arena area. That place is really hopping. Had some convention going on as well as the Off Road races as well.

Nationals in 2017 at South point ? Over the course of the 12-year agreement, USBC will host seven Championship events inside South Point's new bowling tournament facility, including the USBC Women's Championships in 2016, 2020 and 2022 and the USBC Open Championships in 2017, 2019, 2021 and 2023. I will be in the top class 210+, do you need a bowler from Florida to join your group Vdubtx ? PM me. :)

[RobLV1]

You all need to understand about the Vegas centers and league times. Red Rock is extremely easy for daytime leagues (Rock City Trios - Senior league is the highest scoring league in the house). Nighttime is a different story. The lanes are dressed with 25' of head oil. I bowl on Thursday night in a league that takes up the entire 60 lanes. With 25' of head oil, the lanes are very difficult, and if you happen to bowl on the Rock City Trios lanes (39-60) where EVERYONE plays ten board, the lanes are very difficult, unless you are a high rev player who can take advantage of the unlimited wall. The toughest house in the valley is Santa Fe Station - two years ago, Ron Mohr told me he practiced there each week for that very reason. SunCoast and Orleans feature 37' patterns where seniors who can't hook the ball think that they can. Gold Coast, where everyone thinks that there is heavy oil is actually tighter than most for the simple fact that they have the oldest lanes in the city with less back end friction than bowlers are used to seeing. The fairest shot in the valley is at Southpoint, unless you happen to bowl one of the very high averaging leagues where high rev PBA titlests rip up the pattern, making fast, on the fly moves imperative for success.

[Blacksox1]

Las Vegas bowling has a great advantage when it comes to humidity, rarely above 20 percent. Casino entrances are not close at all to the lanes. Usually in Las Vegas you travel at least a 100 yards, or more, that takes you to an elevator, or escalator, that takes you up, or down at least one floor to the bowling center. The rest of us might have to deal with rain, snow, sleet, and high humidity. In Texas maybe all four. Anywhere else in the USA, with multiple exits and ceiling fans, multiply the discomfort factor. Casinos keep the temperature and humidity within strict guidelines, due to slots and electronics. Bowling centers across the United States look to save money anywhere they can, Utilities expense are a great concern.

I travel to Las Vegas, 3 or 4 times a year. Bowlers there, may not know how good they have it. But I do.:D

[fortheloveofbowling]

Las Vegas bowling has a great advantage when it comes to humidity, rarely above 20 percent. Casino entrances are not close at all to the lanes. Usually in Las Vegas you travel at least a 100 yards, or more, that takes you to an elevator, or escalator, that takes you up, or down at least one floor to the bowling center. The rest of us might have to deal with rain, snow, sleet, and high humidity. In Texas maybe all four. Anywhere else in the USA, with multiple exits and ceiling fans, multiply the discomfort factor. Casinos keep the temperature and humidity within strict guidelines, due to slots and electronics. Bowling centers across the United States look to save money anywhere they can, Utilities expense are a great concern.

I travel to Las Vegas, 3 or 4 times a year. Bowlers there, may not know how good they have it. But I do.:D

Averaging 230 for your last 42 games i'm guessing you are not bowling in a dungeon.

[Blacksox1]

Averaging 230 for your last 42 games i'm guessing you are not bowling in a dungeon.

No dungeon, but high humidity, automatic doors that open all the time, ceiling fans, owners who like to save on energy use:rolleyes:.

The Haywire that I won here:D, thanks for the give-aways:cool:, and a new layout, have made a big difference. If I were in Las Vegas, who knows, at least the inside temp would be 72, or less, completely dry with ultra low humidity, maybe I could reach my full potential:eek:.

[Aslan]

One thing I thought was interesting:

My first league on wood lanes; swept in Vegas at the Orleans: Suddenly 190+ average bowlers bowled in the 130s to 160s and were miserable.

My second league, they replaced woods with new synthetics, everybody's averages dropped, they learned how to bowl on synthetics, then swept in Vegas (Orleans again), and did better than they did at the home center.

My third league is the easiest house in Orange County. We swept in Vegas at Gold Coast and everyone did horribly and were pis$ed.

My 4th league sweeps at South Point in May...and the home center is a very old center with very old lanes...a ton of constant changes and differences between lanes, etc... It'll be interesting to see how people do.

So back to my previous point...how easy/hard Vegas is depends almost entirely on how you bowl and what you're used to. If you bowl in an easy center, on easier patterns, and then go to Vegas...it's gonna be a shock to the system. If you're used to bowling on tough conditions, Vegas won't seem any harder and may even seem easier...especially if you usually bowl on inconsistent conditions. One good thing about Vegas is the conditions may be hard or easy...but they keep their lanes in good shape, their machinery in good condition, and have knowledgeable staff. Those casinos are constantly hosting important bowling events and can't risk a reputation of having garbage lanes, etc...

And on variable that Blacksox didn't consider...is the level of talent bowling in Vegas. Many PBA bowlers, USBC coaches, and PBA50 guys LIVE in and around Vegas and bowl in those leagues. Obviously, that's going to bump up league averages a bit. I've bowled sanctioned leagues in 3 different houses in Orange County...and the only time I've bowled against "real talent" I can count on one hand. And most of them are no higher in status than a Bronze certified Pro Shop owner or a low-level regional ball rep. Even in tournaments, I can count on one hand how many regional pros have showed up. Orange County has a ton of centers...so talent is spread around. Between Northern LA, Southern LA, Orange County, and the Inland Empire...there's probably almost 75 sanctioned centers. Vegas has relatively few...so the talent is going to be more concentrated...and that should mathematically lead to higher league averages. IMO.

[NewToBowling]

Been to Vegas but never bowled there. Looks like none of these big bowling alleys are on the Strip. Just a bit off like the Orleans or extreme off like South Pointe

[1VegasBowler]

When the humidity does rise here in Vegas, Strike Zone in Henderson is the absolute worst. In fact, it's down right dangerous because you can not slide.

Gold Coast - Been bowling there in 2 leagues for the winter, and there are always mechanical or computer breakdowns. Except when there's a tournament going on (imagine that).

Silver Nugget in NLV not only damages balls, but there always seems to be some kind of sticky substance on my ball when it comes back.

No issues of any kind with the rest of the centers here in Vegas.

[RobLV1]

When the humidity does rise here in Vegas, Strike Zone in Henderson is the absolute worst. In fact, it's down right dangerous because you can not slide.

Gold Coast - Been bowling there in 2 leagues for the winter, and there are always mechanical or computer breakdowns. Except when there's a tournament going on (imagine that).

Silver Nugget in NLV not only damages balls, but there always seems to be some kind of sticky substance on my ball when it comes back.

No issues of any kind with the rest of the centers here in Vegas.

Being that you are relatively new to Vegas with limited experiences here, I thought you might want to hear a somewhat less limited viewpoint. First, when the humidity goes up in Vegas, many centers have a hard time dealing with it. The two with the worst reputations in terms of sticky approaches are the two centers that are located in basements: Texas Station and Sam's Town. Next on the list are the centers that are located nearest to the outside of the large casino buildings: Strike Zone and Red Rock. High humidity is sometimes made worse by casino policies that don't take into account requirements of bowling like being able to slide. A couple of years ago, they decided to shampoo the carpets overnight at Red Rock during one of those periods of high humidity. We tried everything including bowling with socks only, and many of us, myself included, ended up using a one-step approach with no slide at all.

The idea that the Gold Coast always has mechanical or computer breakdowns except during tournaments is absurd. I've bowled leagues at Gold Coast, Sun Coast, Red Rock, Southpoint, and Santa Fe, and there are no more breakdowns at Gold Coast than anywhere else. Pinsetters are nothing more than machines, much like cars, and like cars, they occasionally break down. What is important is how responsive the center is to a malfunction, and the staff at Gold Coast does a better than average job.

I cannot comment on Silver Nugget, since I haven't bowled there in several years. Other than than, I can say we absolute conviction that we who live and bowl in Las Vegas are spoiled rotten in terms of what we've come to expect from bowling centers in a city where there is more competition to attract bowlers than virtually anywhere else on the planet.

[Aslan]

Last time I had sweeps at Gold Coast, the pinsetter broke down. The guy on the opposing team had the front 7 and like most of that league....it was rather....well "trailery". Like...well...the point is...they were pitching a fit...that I have not seen adults pitch in some time. So, 35 minutes later, we were allowed to continue...and the guy of course missed the next shot...and then kicked the ball return...then got warned for that...and the drama started all over again. We got done over an hour later than everyone else.

Not sure if thats indicative of Gold Coast....first time I had a problem...and in fairness....it was the other team being drunk and obnoxious more than the Gold Coast.

[1VegasBowler]

Just found out this past Monday night, the USBC went to the Gold Coast for their re-certification and it didn't go well for them.

Their oiling machines are placing patterns that don't conform the USBC standards with the oil not being placed properly. The 2nd hit on their oiling machines is that they are actually putting water on the lanes!

And here's another clue they are losing business: They have made it a priority to get rid of one of the locker areas to make another arcade in there!

While they have time (no idea how much) to get their oiling machines in order, they are also in danger of losing their USBC Certification.

Of the 10 teams that bowl on Monday and Wednesday nights, both of them are going to lose close to half of the teams that are there because it is going down hill so quickly.

In fact, one of the Monday night leagues folded just before the mid point of the season in December.

They have also discontinued the midnight bowling as of September 2015 due to lack of participation and are sending people over to the Orleans.

[RobLV1]

Just found out this past Monday night, the USBC went to the Gold Coast for their re-certification and it didn't go well for them.

Their oiling machines are placing patterns that don't conform the USBC standards with the oil not being placed properly. The 2nd hit on their oiling machines is that they are actually putting water on the lanes!

And here's another clue they are losing business: They have made it a priority to get rid of one of the locker areas to make another arcade in there!

While they have time (no idea how much) to get their oiling machines in order, they are also in danger of losing their USBC Certification.

Of the 10 teams that bowl on Monday and Wednesday nights, both of them are going to lose close to half of the teams that are there because it is going down hill so quickly.

In fact, one of the Monday night leagues folded just before the mid point of the season in December.

They have also discontinued the midnight bowling as of September 2015 due to lack of participation and are sending people over to the Orleans.

I'd love to know where you got your information. The Vegas bowling rumor mill runs rampant, and most of what you hear is pure conjecture. As far as I can tell after an examination of the USBC website and rule book, the USBC standards for oiling are virtually non-existent; that's a big part of the problem with modern bowling. I know a few years ago, the standard was a minimum of three units of oil from gutter to gutter, and a minimum distance of either 25' or 15' (I really can't remember, but it is so short as to be meaningless). If there are no standards, how can they fail to meet them? As for the discontinuation of midnight bowling, they are simply following the pattern set by most of the bowling centers in the valley. First they start closing the bar at either midnight or 2 a.m., then their bowling business falls off because the bar is closed, and finally they close the center because the bowling business falls off. This all happened at the Suncoast some 5 years ago. Gold Coast is just catching up. It wouldn't surprise me at all if Orleans doesn't follow suit shortly. The problem is that Casinos have begun to look at each department as an individual profit center. If the bowling center bar is not bringing in revenue, it closes earlier. If the bowling center is not bringing in revenue, it closes earlier. If an individual restaurant is not making a profit, it is closed down and replaced with another. As soon as big business took over gambling in Las Vegas, the notion that all you have to do is get people in the door so they will gamble is gone as evidenced by the demise of the $5 surf and turf!

[1VegasBowler]

I'd love to know where you got your information. The Vegas bowling rumor mill runs rampant, and most of what you hear is pure conjecture. As far as I can tell after an examination of the USBC website and rule book, the USBC standards for oiling are virtually non-existent; that's a big part of the problem with modern bowling. I know a few years ago, the standard was a minimum of three units of oil from gutter to gutter, and a minimum distance of either 25' or 15' (I really can't remember, but it is so short as to be meaningless). If there are no standards, how can they fail to meet them? As for the discontinuation of midnight bowling, they are simply following the pattern set by most of the bowling centers in the valley. First they start closing the bar at either midnight or 2 a.m., then their bowling business falls off because the bar is closed, and finally they close the center because the bowling business falls off. This all happened at the Suncoast some 5 years ago. Gold Coast is just catching up. It wouldn't surprise me at all if Orleans doesn't follow suit shortly. The problem is that Casinos have begun to look at each department as an individual profit center. If the bowling center bar is not bringing in revenue, it closes earlier. If the bowling center is not bringing in revenue, it closes earlier. If an individual restaurant is not making a profit, it is closed down and replaced with another. As soon as big business took over gambling in Las Vegas, the notion that all you have to do is get people in the door so they will gamble is gone as evidenced by the demise of the $5 surf and turf!

My information comes from a USBC Board Member who was there when the tests were administered. Not second hand knowledge, but directly from the source. And I take this as a fact, not a rumor.

[Mike White]

I'd love to know where you got your information. The Vegas bowling rumor mill runs rampant, and most of what you hear is pure conjecture. As far as I can tell after an examination of the USBC website and rule book, the USBC standards for oiling are virtually non-existent; that's a big part of the problem with modern bowling. I know a few years ago, the standard was a minimum of three units of oil from gutter to gutter, and a minimum distance of either 25' or 15' (I really can't remember, but it is so short as to be meaningless). If there are no standards, how can they fail to meet them? As for the discontinuation of midnight bowling, they are simply following the pattern set by most of the bowling centers in the valley. First they start closing the bar at either midnight or 2 a.m., then their bowling business falls off because the bar is closed, and finally they close the center because the bowling business falls off. This all happened at the Suncoast some 5 years ago. Gold Coast is just catching up. It wouldn't surprise me at all if Orleans doesn't follow suit shortly. The problem is that Casinos have begun to look at each department as an individual profit center. If the bowling center bar is not bringing in revenue, it closes earlier. If the bowling center is not bringing in revenue, it closes earlier. If an individual restaurant is not making a profit, it is closed down and replaced with another. As soon as big business took over gambling in Las Vegas, the notion that all you have to do is get people in the door so they will gamble is gone as evidenced by the demise of the $5 surf and turf!

From Equipment Specifications (http://usbcongress.http.internapcdn.net/usbcongress/bowl/equipandspecs/pdfs/ESManual.pdf), page 47,

D Retention
In addition to compliance with all other terms and conditions of the certification requirements, retention of a certificate shall be subject to the following:
1. If dressing is used, it shall meet specificcations and must comply with the following:
a. Dressing must be distributed from edge board to edge board for the entire
distance that dressing is applied. (In the application of this rule, buffing the lane
is considered applying dressing.)
b. Following any application of dressing, in the dressed portion of the lane there
shall be a minimum of three units of dressing at all points on the lane surface.
c. Any stripping (cleaning) of dressing from the lanes must be uniform from edge
board to edge board and at least from the headpin to the distance to which dressing has been applied.

[RobLV1]

My information comes from a USBC Board Member who was there when the tests were administered. Not second hand knowledge, but directly from the source. And I take this as a fact, not a rumor.

I was a Board member for several years and participated in lane certifications at every center in the Valley. Believe me when I say that the local Board is not immune to the rumor mill.