"Muscling" the backswing?

[zdawg]

So one of the things I want to work on is creating a bigger backswing - partially because my coach told me my backswing was too short, and partially because I've been recording myself a lot lately and I can see what he is talking about. He also had me stop pushing the ball out in favor of a hinge method, so it feels like it causes the backswing to be even shorter.

I'm considering forcing or muscling the ball a bit on the backswing to allow it to get some height, before letting gravity take over completely on the forward swing. To be clear, I'm not interested in Mike Fagan height on my backswing, just something closer (not necessarily exactly) to parallel to the floor at the maximum height of the backswing.

Just using gravity after the ball drops has left me with a frustratingly small backswing, and I can't help but think I'm doing something wrong or that I should help it a bit just to get it to a reasonable height.

[bowl1820]

Take a look at this article.
Click for How High Can A Free Swing Go?

by Ron Clifton (http://www.bowl4fun.com/ron/tip41_files/tip41.htm)

[zdawg]

Take a look at this article.
Click for How High Can A Free Swing Go?

by Ron Clifton (http://www.bowl4fun.com/ron/tip41_files/tip41.htm)

Thanks, that looks like it could help me a lot!

[Aslan]

Thats odd what your coach is saying. The pros I've worked with have said the opposite which is to:

A) Push the ball out rather than let it "drop"...
and
B) Shorten the backswing...

Thats odd...but it seems like to increase your backswing without "muscling"...can't you just start with the ball higher (chin level vs. waist level for instance)? IDK...just an idea.

[sprocket]

Thats odd what your coach is saying. The pros I've worked with have said the opposite which is to:

A) Push the ball out rather than let it "drop"...
and
B) Shorten the backswing...

Thats odd...but it seems like to increase your backswing without "muscling"...can't you just start with the ball higher (chin level vs. waist level for instance)? IDK...just an idea.


I think the reason that tends to not work is because the swing has an overall length and and overall time to execute. The feet tend to time themselves to the swing. A swing that starts higher often results with the feet starting to move along with the initial ball movement. In order to stay in time the back swing ends up shorter. If you think about it you probably see it all the time; a bowler starts the ball high and really tries to exaggerate the pushaway in an attempt to lengthen their back swing, yet invariably their feet start to move at the start of the swing and when the feet are getting ready for release, the ball is barely past their hip!

I like the Idea of spine tilt far more. I think Ron Clifton is exactly right. An easy smooth pushaway with properly timed spine tilt will result in the ball getting higher in the back swing even though the actual total swing length hasn't changed!

[zdawg]

I think the reason that tends to not work is because the swing has an overall length and and overall time to execute. The feet tend to time themselves to the swing. A swing that starts higher often results with the feet starting to move along with the initial ball movement. In order to stay in time the back swing ends up shorter. If you think about it you probably see it all the time; a bowler starts the ball high and really tries to exaggerate the pushaway in an attempt to lengthen their back swing, yet invariably their feet start to move at the start of the swing and when the feet are getting ready for release, the ball is barely past their hip!

I like the Idea of spine tilt far more. I think Ron Clifton is exactly right. An easy smooth pushaway with properly timed spine tilt will result in the ball getting higher in the back swing even though the actual total swing length hasn't changed!

I think you've hit the nail on the head with that, its a timing issue. My coach is Mark Baker btw, so I tend to watch a lot of Chris Barnes's stuff a) because he's coached by Mark Baker and b) because his form is pretty much as close to perfect as I've seen - and while I realize I'm built differently than him he too has that "hinge push off" rather than pushing the ball out and down if that makes sense.

And Aslan, you're right on starting the ball higher, originally I was starting at about belt height but he had me start much higher (around chest level). I'm still playing around with it when I practice, I think I'll try leaning a bit per the article that Bowl1820 linked to above

[Aslan]

And Aslan, you're right on starting the ball higher, originally I was starting at about belt height but he had me start much higher (around chest level). I'm still playing around with it when I practice, I think I'll try leaning a bit per the article that Bowl1820 linked to above

I had the opposite issue in that I was starting with the ball at face level and just "dropping" it. So the coaches I've worked with have stressed a more "beltline" starting point and an outward push (rather than a "drop"). This was a tough adjustment at first...but like sprocket...once I saw the video of myself that the one coach shot...I realized that my backswing was far too high...way over shoulder/head level...and for a relative beginner...that adds a lot of speed and a lot of variability and timeing issues.

Thats also why I don't always agree with "doing it like the pros"...because many of those pros have such good timing and releases and equipment...that they'll have backswings that are nearly 270 degrees...straight above their heads (Mika, Rhino, etc...). If a beginner tries to mimic that...without the approach and equipment and release and timing at an advanced level....I would think it would lead to horribly inconsistent scoring...it did for me just being slightly above shoulder level.

[zdawg]

I had the opposite issue in that I was starting with the ball at face level and just "dropping" it. So the coaches I've worked with have stressed a more "beltline" starting point and an outward push (rather than a "drop"). This was a tough adjustment at first...but like sprocket...once I saw the video of myself that the one coach shot...I realized that my backswing was far too high...way over shoulder/head level...and for a relative beginner...that adds a lot of speed and a lot of variability and timeing issues.

Thats also why I don't always agree with "doing it like the pros"...because many of those pros have such good timing and releases and equipment...that they'll have backswings that are nearly 270 degrees...straight above their heads (Mika, Rhino, etc...). If a beginner tries to mimic that...without the approach and equipment and release and timing at an advanced level....I would think it would lead to horribly inconsistent scoring...it did for me just being slightly above shoulder level.

Agreed. In my case, my backswing was so short/slight (and still is but is slowly improving) that I was muscling the ball just to get it to go faster than 10 - 11 mph so I guess I started at the opposite end of the spectrum.

[Aslan]

Agreed. In my case, my backswing was so short/slight (and still is but is slowly improving) that I was muscling the ball just to get it to go faster than 10 - 11 mph so I guess I started at the opposite end of the spectrum.

WHOA! I need YOUR game...to combine with my game. Again...opposite problem...on heavy oil...i need to get down to about 13mph...and I just can't seem to get below about 15.5 without feeling like I'm just "dropping" it.

Bowling is an interesting journey....2 people starting their learning curves with opposite problems trying to reach that same eventual goal. Good luck!

[zdawg]

Bowling is an interesting journey....2 people starting their learning curves with opposite problems trying to reach that same eventual goal. Good luck!

It certainly is, and good luck to you as well

[Aslan]

that I was muscling the ball just to get it to go faster than 10 - 11 mph so I guess I started at the opposite end of the spectrum.

My muscling (which results in too much speed...> 19mph)...is more the result of trying to create more revs. I just am really struggling with trying to get that tweener/cranker type of release to create 250-350rpm while also just having a short, gentle swing with no "muscling"....while also not twerking my hand over top the ball (topping it).

Have you or your coach talked about maybe having a quicker/longer approach? Rather than a higher backswing?

I only ask because I was told by one coach that your ball speed is more from the momentum generated in your approach speed than it is from a higher backswing. I think that was even argued on the forums as well in the dicussion about "muscling" that we had a couple months ago. Just wondering.

[zdawg]

My muscling (which results in too much speed...> 19mph)...is more the result of trying to create more revs. I just am really struggling with trying to get that tweener/cranker type of release to create 250-350rpm while also just having a short, gentle swing with no "muscling"....while also not twerking my hand over top the ball (topping it).

Have you or your coach talked about maybe having a quicker/longer approach? Rather than a higher backswing?

I only ask because I was told by one coach that your ball speed is more from the momentum generated in your approach speed than it is from a higher backswing. I think that was even argued on the forums as well in the dicussion about "muscling" that we had a couple months ago. Just wondering.

Yeah, he wanted me to increase the speed of my approach (I slowed it down initially to work on my form), but in conjunction with increasing the length/height of my backswing. The problem with having an extremely short backswing is that I end up using my arm and shoulder to generate all the power - now I do have a good amount of upper body strength and his point is that while I can probably do well for a game or two, as the night wears on and my muscles get tired it has a negative impact on my game overall. Hence, the need to increase the backswing, which in turn should decrease my muscle involvement.

[Aslan]

- now I do have a good amount of upper body strength and his point is that while I can probably do well for a game or two, as the night wears on and my muscles get tired it has a negative impact on my game overall.

I agree and further I think the muscling is even more of an issue (than fatigue) because it's harder to control consistency. Hard to use just the exact same "umpfff" every time.

[Hammer]

So one of the things I want to work on is creating a bigger backswing - partially because my coach told me my backswing was too short, and partially because I've been recording myself a lot lately and I can see what he is talking about. He also had me stop pushing the ball out in favor of a hinge method, so it feels like it causes the backswing to be even shorter.

I'm considering forcing or muscling the ball a bit on the backswing to allow it to get some height, before letting gravity take over completely on the forward swing. To be clear, I'm not interested in Mike Fagan height on my backswing, just something closer (not necessarily exactly) to parallel to the floor at the maximum height of the backswing.

Just using gravity after the ball drops has left me with a frustratingly small backswing, and I can't help but think I'm doing something wrong or that I should help it a bit just to get it to a reasonable height.

When you let your ball go into the backswing do you keep your shoulders parallel to the foul line or do you let your shoulders open as the ball is going into the backswing? Do you also have some forward spine tilt before you start your approach? If you keep your shoulders parallel to the foul line on your backswing your arm is going to stop at a cetain point because your shoulder is made to let your arm go only so high in the backswing. In order to get a higher backswing as the ball is going back you have to open your shoulders
to let the ball get higher. Try this. Stand facing a wall with your shoulders parallel to that wall. Now take your arm you bowl with and raise it backward as high as you can without leaning forward or letting your arm go outside or inside your body. You can only go so far before it stops or you will hurt yourself forcing it higher. Now facing the wall again open your bowling shoulder a little so it is slightly behind your non-bowling shoulder. Now as you move your bowling arm back open your shoulders so they are parallel or almost parallel
to the wall on your bowling arm side. You will notice that your arm can go higher more easily this way. It is just like facing a wall and lifting your arm from your side as high as you can. Going from your side up is a lot easier then facing a wall and trying to get your arm high by letting it go backwards as high as you can. That is why opening your shoulders in the backswing is the way to go for a higher backswing. It is easier on the shoulder for sure. Don't forget some forward spine tilt also before you start your approach.

[dnhoffman]

While I wouldn't criticize anyone for starting out at a higher ball position to generate a naturally higher backswing, I think you'll find that you're more inconsistent the less natural and relaxed you make your mechanics.

You don't need a higher backswing to generate better pin carry/ball motion/etc. if you did, a nine year old wouldn't have recently bowled a 300. I've seen plenty of guys with low, smooth, natural backswings score 300.

[tr33frog]

I think trying to muscle the ball is one of the things that I have questioned about my swing the most, I don't feel like I have much of a back swing. I'm going to have to man up and take a video of myself to verify what I'm really doing there.

In general I do control ball swing with how far I push the ball out, eq I push out further, which gives me more back swing and more speed on the ball. Though I'm not as consistent when going that route if I'm also trying to crank the ball as well. It isn't so bad on down and in throws, but cross lane...

[zdawg]

When you let your ball go into the backswing do you keep your shoulders parallel to the foul line or do you let your shoulders open as the ball is going into the backswing? Do you also have some forward spine tilt before you start your approach? If you keep your shoulders parallel to the foul line on your backswing your arm is going to stop at a cetain point because your shoulder is made to let your arm go only so high in the backswing. In order to get a higher backswing as the ball is going back you have to open your shoulders
to let the ball get higher. Try this. Stand facing a wall with your shoulders parallel to that wall. Now take your arm you bowl with and raise it backward as high as you can without leaning forward or letting your arm go outside or inside your body. You can only go so far before it stops or you will hurt yourself forcing it higher. Now facing the wall again open your bowling shoulder a little so it is slightly behind your non-bowling shoulder. Now as you move your bowling arm back open your shoulders so they are parallel or almost parallel
to the wall on your bowling arm side. You will notice that your arm can go higher more easily this way. It is just like facing a wall and lifting your arm from your side as high as you can. Going from your side up is a lot easier then facing a wall and trying to get your arm high by letting it go backwards as high as you can. That is why opening your shoulders in the backswing is the way to go for a higher backswing. It is easier on the shoulder for sure. Don't forget some forward spine tilt also before you start your approach.

Yeah, my shoulders are pretty much parallel to the foul line, since tonight was league night I decided not to try opening my shoulders at all or adding a forward spine tilt (over the last two weeks I've added a tilt to the right in my stance since I'm right handed to help keep the ball in line with my head).

[zdawg]

While I wouldn't criticize anyone for starting out at a higher ball position to generate a naturally higher backswing, I think you'll find that you're more inconsistent the less natural and relaxed you make your mechanics.

You don't need a higher backswing to generate better pin carry/ball motion/etc. if you did, a nine year old wouldn't have recently bowled a 300. I've seen plenty of guys with low, smooth, natural backswings score 300.

Essentially when I started off taking lessons from Mark Baker, there was a long list of things I needed to work on. Basically I've spent the last two months trying to add piece by piece. Holding the ball higher, and generating a higher backswing were two of the first things he wanted me to work on, along with increasing my approach speed. Part of the reason is that I was throwing the ball extremely slow, and he noted all of these things as major problem areas.

My backswing varies now, and I've just recently started focusing on it the last couple of days as its next on my list of things to work on, but basically I'm trying to follow the coaching I'm receiving since I have to drive quite a distance and Mark's prices aren't exactly cheap :D So, basically I'm not trying to just pick random things, I'm just trying to work on the ideas he gave me last time - and next time of course, I have a list of questions to ask but I figure we have a wealth of experience on this site as well so I'm just trying to get some ideas from you guys in the meantime

[Hammer]

When you practice you should try opening your shoulders on the way back to get use to it. This will allow you to get more speed on the ball without muscling it. The sideways tilt is fine but you also need a little forward spine tilt. So forward spine tilt, side tilt and opening the shoulders on the backswing is the way to go if possible. You can see an example of this technique by going on YOUTUBE and typing
in a video called Analysis of modern 10-pin bowling swing and release. This video has been on here a few times if you haven't seen it already. Good luck with this.

[zdawg]

When you practice you should try opening your shoulders on the way back to get use to it. This will allow you to get more speed on the ball without muscling it. The sideways tilt is fine but you also need a little forward spine tilt. So forward spine tilt, side tilt and opening the shoulders on the backswing is the way to go if possible. You can see an example of this technique by going on YOUTUBE and typing
in a video called Analysis of modern 10-pin bowling swing and release. This video has been on here a few times if you haven't seen it already. Good luck with this.

Thanks, and yeah I've been watching that video a bunch lately :cool:

[Hammer]

You might have to take baby steps with opening your shoulders on the backswing. Before you start your approach open your shoulders a little where your ball side shoulder is a little behind your balance shoulder and you add your lateral spine tilt to the side with your ball.
Also throw in a little forward tilt. As you swing back your forward tilt will increase some. When it does keep it there through your release.
With that lateral tilt to your ball side the swing will remain under your head on the way back and forward to the release. When you get use to opening your shoulders a little on the way back you can open them a little more as your confidence builds. You don't necessarily
have to have them open so they are parallel to the lane you are bowling on but open them as far as is comfortable to you. As long as you open them some your ball speed might increase some. With the technology in bowling balls now with the different cores in them a higher speed if possible will make your ball work the way it should. Depending on the ball you have a too slow speed will make it hook too early especially if you play an outside line on a Typical House Shot pattern which is used mostly on regular house leagues.