what does STAY BEHIND THE BALL mean?

[Judy clemons]

Will someone please explain what it means to stay behind the ball?

[Perrin]

usually when that is said they are talking about hand/arm position.

Turning the wrist/arm too early can cause your hand to come around the side of the ball at release insted of being on the back of the ball.

[classygranny]

While I am probably the last person to be giving advice on here, I did have this problem early on when I was learning to hook the ball.

Staying behind the ball is the opposite of topping the ball. This is when a bowler goes around the ball causing the ball to spin like a top rather than roll - aka spinner. A spinner usually doesn't have much power as it is not getting enough surface contact on the lane.

Staying behind the ball means you let your thumb out a little sooner and lift straighter up with your fingers, sometimes with a little finger pop at the end of your release point. Let the ball roll of your hand without trying to over hook it. The release should be up or toward the ceiling. Thus, "behind the ball".

The more experienced guys/coaches can probably give you more detail than this, but this is what I learned.

[GeoLes]

Will someone please explain what it means to stay behind the ball?

If you can imagine the back of your bowlling ball during delivery, you can see the lowermost part of the back of the ball, This is where you want your hand to be throughout the swing. You can get a better idea what it means if you use a basketball, nerf ball, what have you. No approach movements are required. Just stand about 6 feet from a wall in a comfortable finish position with ball somewhere between chest and waiste level.

1. Hold the ball so it is balanced in your palm with cupped wrist, as if in starting setup position when bowiiing. Notice 4 fingers are pointed forward and thumb pointed up.

2. With a gentle pushoff, start pendulum swing as you normally would, keeping the hand in the same position, with wriist cupped, fingers forward and thumb up.

3. As the ball passed your body on the return swing, maintain the same cup with fingers Still forward and thumb up. Remember to keep that arm straight throughout (don't "chiken wing" it)

4. As the ball passes your sliding foot, (and not before), allow the entire palm to rotate 90-degrees, allowing the ball to roll off the finger tips.

Notce how the hand remains low and behind the ball throughout the swing and naturally rotates ONLY at the point of release.


I do this whenever I go to the gym. I get some strange looks from people on the basketball court though. :)

That's how I learned to stay behind the ball.

[Judy clemons]

if i am comprehending this correctly, what your telling me is: using fingertip drilled ball
My normal hold is at 10 o'clock ...{ball does have a hook} with release at 10 o:clock
However at 90 degrees i should be releasing it at 1 o'clock and this will give it a significant hook difference
is that correct?

[classygranny]

if i am comprehending this correctly, what your telling me is: using fingertip drilled ball
My normal hold is at 10 o'clock ...{ball does have a hook} with release at 10 o:clock
However at 90 degrees i should be releasing it at 1 o'clock and this will give it a significant hook difference
is that correct?

I'm not sure I'm comprehending your comment.

What I am currently working with my coach on is pretty much starting with my thumb at about 2 or 3 o'clock with the palm flat underneath the ball - supported by the left (non-bowling) hand, with a little bit of a cupped wrist. Maintaining that wrist position throughout a relaxed and straight swing. When you release the ball between the heel and toe of your slide foot, then your thumb would release first, and the fingers would lift straight up and follow through. There are more positions that are correctly identified as "staying behind the ball", but this is probably the most common/easiest to learn first. I had started to open up my shoulder and tended to either overturn the ball or not get back around under the ball and the inconsistency was killing my game. As we advance we will be able to adapt additional hand positions/releases in order to compensate for lane conditions when moving/adjusting our foot/ball projectory doesn't work.

All of our hands are made differently and we all bend more or less than the person in the next lane. Experiment to a point and find what feels comfortable, and works for you. Comfort is easier to repeat than a position that feels foreign to your body. That's why working with a good coach will help you find that "comfort zone" and use it to your bowling advantage.

[Greenday]

1. Hold the ball so it is balanced in your palm with cupped wrist, as if in starting setup position when bowiiing. Notice 4 fingers are pointed forward and thumb pointed up.

2. With a gentle pushoff, start pendulum swing as you normally would, keeping the hand in the same position, with wriist cupped, fingers forward and thumb up.

It's entirely possibly to stay behind the ball, with your hand in the correct position without cupping the ball. It's less strain on the wrist/forearm if you do it uncupped.

[Judy clemons]

i'm sorry! i was taught to hold my ball at thumb position 10 o'oclock from start to finish
thumb releases first followed by finger giving slight push off at follow thru... no one ever
explained why to me... i just know it worked.

[classygranny]

i'm sorry! i was taught to hold my ball at thumb position 10 o'oclock from start to finish
thumb releases first followed by finger giving slight push off at follow thru... no one ever
explained why to me... i just know it worked.

Don't be sorry. A lot of bowlers don't know why...they just know to do something. Most of us really learn by trial and error, so just listen, practice and find what works for you.

Play around with various positions and you will see the difference in the movement on your ball, and what's comfortable to you. I know some like to start with thumb at 3; fingers at 7, so they rotate more on release. My arm doesn't seem to rotate that far over without feeling it, so I'm sticking with 2 o'clock. I get enough rotation on release by lifting with the fingers and minimal rotation that I can be consistent. In order to take something off the ball, I will rotate it more straight up, say at 12 o'clock.

And Greenday is correct..cupping the wrist is optional and sometimes puts strain on the wrist/forearm and has nothing to do with "staying behind the ball". While I say mine is cupped it probably isn't to most people. I just bring it up a bit (maybe 10-15 degrees at most) to make sure there is some bend as it keeps me from letting my wrist break back toward my arm.

[billf]

i'm sorry! i was taught to hold my ball at thumb position 10 o'oclock from start to finish
thumb releases first followed by finger giving slight push off at follow thru... no one ever
explained why to me... i just know it worked.

The former high school coach taught the students that same way. Why? It's the easiest way to teach a "starter" hook.

Most bowlers learn to throw straight first so I have been teaching them to stay inside the ball. It's the preferred method of top players so I figured why not, give them one less thing to learn then re-learn.

There are almost as many ways to hook a ball as there are bowlers. Some are just more efficient than others. The further behind or inside the ball you can get, the more power you can produce. Power is more than just speed or just revs. It's the ability to generate speed, revs and maximize pin carry.

[GeoLes]

It's entirely possibly to stay behind the ball, with your hand in the correct position without cupping the ball. It's less strain on the wrist/forearm if you do it uncupped.

I fully agree. I use the cupped position in practice drills because it is the easiest to monitor as the ball is kind of balanced in the palm of the hand throughout the swing. (this is just for practice of course.) As others have stated, there are variiances in wrist position from cupped to broken, variences in wrist angle, but the fundamentals are the same. ) As long and the hand is behind the ball at the point of release, you are "behind the ball".

Another drill for that is to practice rolling the ball thumb hole only. You have to keep the wrist is full support position up to the point of release or you lose the ball.

As long and the hand is behind the ball at the point of release, you are "behind the ball". Which is the point of my post.

[Hammer]

When you push a stalled car you push from behind the car for more energy to get the car going forward. You wouldn't push a car from the side of the car and expect to have enough force to make it go forward. The same with a bowling ball. As you come to the release area you want your hand to be behind the ball and then your thumb will come out first and then your fingers will rotate about an inch or two as the ball is coming off of your hand. Make sure that when your hand and fingers rotate that you don't turn your whole arm to do it.
Just your hand turns. Try turning your hand slightly without holding a ball by putting your arm straight out in front of you with your palm facing the sky. Now turn your hand and fingers slightly to the left if you are right handed and opposite if you are left handed. As
you can see you can turn just your hand one or two inches without using your whole arm to do it. Your forearm might turn just a little but your elbow should still be facing the floor. Also as you come to the release area make sure your wrist stays straight or a little cupped
and does not break towards the rear. You will lose energy to the ball to make it go forward if you do and it will cut down on your revs.

[classygranny]

Try turning your hand slightly without holding a ball by putting your arm straight out in front of you with your palm facing the sky. Now turn your hand and fingers slightly to the left if you are right handed and opposite if you are left handed. As
you can see you can turn just your hand one or two inches without using your whole arm to do it. Your forearm might turn just a little but your elbow should still be facing the floor.

Humm...Is this why I have such a tendency to overturn the ball? When I hold my arm out straight in front with palm up, I am able to turn my hand to where it is palm down and my arm and elbow never move, the elbow is still facing the floor? Left handed I can't turn as much but almost...Maybe I should try bowling left handed...lol - NOT.

[Hammer]

To classygranny: When you get to the release zone which is by your sliding foot your hand should still be behind the ball. At that time your thumb will come out quickly and then you just have to turn your hand as little as one to two inches. Some folks are under the impression that to make the ball have revs you have to spin the ball with an over the top motion of your hand. What actually puts revs
on the ball is that slight turn of your hand and the weight of the bowling ball pulling off of the tips of your fingers. What you don't want to do is to straighten your fingertips to let the ball come off your hand. Keep your fingertips locked in the position that they are in when you put them into the ball. Let the weight of the bowling pull itself off of your fingertips. The ball with it's weight and the force of your swing will not make it a hard job for the ball to come off of your hand. You will be surprised at how easy it is to put revs on the ball if you use this technique. Remember, don't spin the ball with an over rotation of your hand to make it hook. A one to two inch turn of your hand and the ball pulling off of your locked in position fingertips will give you nice revs.

[classygranny]

Hammer...I don't tend to overturn the ball like I did when I first started learning to bowl. But I thought it interesting that I could turn my hand completely over when you felt it would not be possible without turning the elbow or arm. I guess we are all built different and move different.

I did find your comment about the fingertips a jolt. This is something I had learned many years ago, but haven't thought about it in a very long time. I just can't remember if I still do it or not. Guess I will have to examine that part of my game next time out...Friday. Thanks for the headsup reminder.

[GeoLes]

I find it confusing to thick of hand positions on a clock or when thumb comes out. I simply think set my wrist positon and leave it there until my hand begins to pass my sliding foot. At that time I simply move the hand from firm palm up to palm palm to the side.


You can practice that as described earlier by extending empty palm forward (straight arm, or course), then turn to a "judo chop" position with thumb up. That's all there is to it. Natural, effortless motion.

[JPbowl]

Something i need to remind myself when the ball looses its bite on oily lanes.
I don't even think about rotating my wrist at release, it just happens when i follow through and get the ball off my hand cleanly.

[Hammer]

To JPbowl: I don't have to think about turning my hand at release after my thumb comes out either. It seems to happen on it's own like it is a natural thing for me. I had an earlier post about that asking if the hand rotation happens naturally for some folks like it does for me. The only thing I think about is keeping my wrist straight or a little cupped and my hand behind the ball until I reach the release zone. :cool:

[GeoLes]

++++

Or to simply state it as my coach does...

Just reach out and shanke hands with the pins..

[JPbowl]

>>Or to simply state it as my coach does...
>>Just reach out and shanke hands with the pins..

This confused the hell out of me when i was trying to learn how to hook it. got me doing some weird rotating wrist motion at release that did get the ball to hook some what, but no where near what a proper release should be.
Now that i know what im doing my hand is more palm up during release. more like pitching a softball.

I wish we could get rid of the suit cases and shaking hands references ;P

[GeoLes]

This is the problem with learning in general. It is what makes a great coach great and a lousy coach lousy. We all conceptualize differently so different word picutures work differently on different people. For me the handshake works perfectly - just push the ball out and extend your has as if greeting someone.

On the other hand the 9:00 12:00 thing makes no sense to me. So I understand where you are coming from. I guess we have to find the language that best speaks to us. I totally get it that you don't get it. :)

[billf]

How about "turning a door knob"?? This has worked for me showing people because we can walk over to the door and SHOW them. The hard part is explaining to roll it off your fingers as you're doing this lol

[JPbowl]

How about "turning a door knob"?? This has worked for me showing people because we can walk over to the door and SHOW them. The hard part is explaining to roll it off your fingers as you're doing this lol


From my learning experience, i would focus on teaching people to get a feel of when your thumb is out of the ball but you feel the weight on your palm as you catch it with your fingers on release.
I wouldn't mention and door knob talk until they can get the ball off their hand cleanly, its likely that they will have some wrist rotation just by getting it off their hand correctly.

[GeoLes]

"From my learning experience, i would focus on teaching people to get a feel of when your thumb is out of the ball but you feel the weight on your palm as you catch it with your fingers on release.
I wouldn't mention and door knob talk until they can get the ball off their hand cleanly, its likely that they will have some wrist rotation just by getting it off their hand correctly. "

Now I am really confused

(kidding, see my earlier post)